Flotilla triggers mass protests, Trump's peace plan, Gen Z revolutions continue

Yesterday, Israel once again attacked a peaceful flotilla travelling towards Gaza to break the naval blockade and deliver humanitarian aid. In the following hours, millions came pouring onto streets across Europe to protest the assault and demand an end to the genocide. In Italy, a general strike has been called for tomorrow.

Meanwhile, Trump and Netanyahu have presented their criminal ‘peace plan’ for Gaza. And, Gen Z revolutions are erupting across the world on an almost daily basis.

In this week's Against the Stream, Jorge Martín and Hamid Alizadeh take stock of the whirlwind of events and point out the tasks for communists today.

Against the Stream is the current affairs podcast of the Revolutionary Communist International. It airs weekly on YouTube on Thursdays at 6pm London time.

Transcript

Hamid
It's been a long week in politics. Donald Trump has proposed another peace plan for Gaza, a plan that Hamas has until today to answer. And meanwhile, the Gen Z revolution is continuing. We've seen, over the past month, revolutionary movements in Indonesia and Nepal, where heads of states and governments have been overthrown, and we've seen protest movements in places like the Philippines, Ecuador, Paraguay, Peru. And now we see the new flashpoints of this movement in Madagascar and Morocco, where mass revolutionary movements are raging as we speak.

We'll be talking about all of this, but first, we'll start with the main item of today, which is the Gaza-bound Flotilla, which has been intercepted by the Israeli Navy last night. This led to immediate mass protests all across Europe, in places like Spain, Greece, Italy, Germany and even in Britain.

Now, what this reflects is the enormous support there is for the Palestinian cause all across the world amongst the working classes. But we have to ask ourselves the important question: how can it be that, after all of this time, with this amount of effort being exerted by working people and young people all across the world, that the Palestinians are as far away from their freedom as ever before.

That is a serious question that all people who are dedicated to this cause must answer, and we must make a serious study of the means and measures that are necessary to win. My name is Hamid Alizadeh. I'm here today with Jorge Martín, and this is Against the Stream.

So Jorge, there's been a pretty explosive situation last night. I mean, we knew that something would happen. But I have to say, I was surprised at the scale of things.

Jorge
Yes. Well this was bound to happen. This flotilla, which has been sailing for the last few weeks with about, I think it's 46 different boats from different countries, from Spain, from Italy, from Greece, from Cyprus, some from Turkey, from Tunisia, Malaysia. And also, people in these boats are also from other different countries. Like there's even two from Colombia... they're from all over the world.

And their stated aim was to break with the Israeli naval embargo of Gaza and to deliver aid and means of curing people and so on. And the Israeli army was never going to allow them to go through. There have been other flotillas before, and every time is the same. Once they reach or they come close to the territorial waters – which are claimed by Israel but in fact, they are just outside of Gaza, so in reality they are Gazan territorial waters – they are intercepted by the Israeli Navy.

And this is exactly what happened yesterday in a most brutal manner. Imagine this. I mean, this is the middle of the night, and the Israelis gave them a warning. They said, 'You need to turn around.' And they said, 'No, you have no right. We are in international waters.' They continue to go ahead and then the Israeli army basically boarded these boats with guns and so on. Arrested everyone.

I think that, as of this morning, there were maybe three boats that had not been seized, but the rest of over 40 boats have been seized. 400, close to 500, people have been arrested in a most violent manner, and taken to an Israeli harbour where they're being detained. And it's not very clear what's going to happen. They're probably going to be expelled, processed and expelled.

But yes, they're pretty brutal images and many people were watching back home because the flotilla was being tracked along its its route. And, yeah, it was pretty explosive. And so that's why there was an immediate reaction.

Hamid
Yes. And also, there were quite a few prominent people

Jorge
Yes, members of parliament. There was a member of parliament from Catalonia, members of Parliament from Italy, a senator from Ireland, I think. And there were also trade union leaders, prominent activists like Greta Thunberg, and others. So this made it more prominent. Particularly because there are a lot of people from Spain and Italy, in these two countries the flotilla has become a focal point for all the accumulated rage and the solidarity movement and mass movement around this question.

Hamid
I mean the scenes that we saw yesterday. I thought they were quite inspiring, actually. I think a lot of people would have seen them and been quite inspired.

First of all, this, this flotilla. You can have an opinion about the means and methods of struggle. But they are certainly brave and courageous people who stood up to this Israeli military machine. And what was their crime? They want to bring aid. Something that Israel has systematically refused to bring and has used as a weapon. Using starvation as a weapon, using all sorts of things.

And the protests also were explosive. I mean, we all knew that something would probably happen, but the videos that I've seen on social media from everywhere: from Berlin, all over Spain and in Greece...

Jorge
But particularly in Italy.

Hamid
In Italy, it was huge.

Jorge
In Italy, actually, thousands of people came out: in Rome, in Milan, in Turin, in Bologna, in Genoa. Everywhere.

Hamid
This was late night. It was pretty late.

Jorge
And it wasn't just a protest demonstration. In some cases, they went to the Israeli consulates and embassies. But in Italy, they actually followed with the slogan of the big strike movement and protest movement of the previous Monday, Monday the 22nd of September, where the slogan was, 'Let's block everything'.

I think this is also related to the flotilla. The flotilla is also the idea that the governments of the world should be doing something. They're not doing anything. They've been allowing this genocide to go on for two years now by Israel, without saying anything, or maybe just words and so on. And that something needs to be done. So they've taken direct action.

And the idea in Italy that has caught the imagination of millions of people, is that we need to take direct action. We need to do something concrete. And so last night, as had happened the previous Monday, they went down and they blockaded the train stations, not just the main ones, but all train stations, harbours, ports around Italy, in Genoa and Livorno, in Taranto, Ravenna and so on. People said, 'Okay, this is enough. The governments are not doing anything. We will take direct action.'

Hamid
It's interesting because this goes back to the Yellow Vests, in a way. In France in 2018, this movement against austerity and price hikes on petrol, I think it was, which blocked and kind of occupied squares and roundabouts. And then this was taken up again by the anti-austerity movement and the anti-government movement in France last month or in the past month. And now this has come up and been linked to movement in Italy and the Gaza movement.

Jorge
The slogan in France for this huge anti-austerity protest on the 2nd of September, on the 10th of September, on the 18th of September, and then now again today, the 2nd of October, the slogan is, 'Let's block everything'. This is over austerity measures. In Italy it's over solidarity with Gaza. But the slogan is the same, 'Let's block everything'. And I think this is very significant.

In Italy, there's going to be big demonstrations today. Students are occupying the faculties, the universities and high schools. But tomorrow there's a general strike. This is unprecedented.

On the 22nd there was a call for a general strike by this smaller, more left wing trade union, the USB. A rank and file trade union. It's called Unione Sindacale di Base
. And they called for a general strike. But this union doesn't have the actual power to carry out a general strike. There were strikes in many sectors, but it was mainly a day of mass demonstrations and direct action. People again went down to the train stations. They blockaded train stations, the harbours and so on.

But because this call for a strike on the 22nd put the CGIL – which is the main trade union historically linked to the Communist Party and so on – put the CGIL bureaucracy under so much pressure. 'Why are you not doing anything?' Many of its members were asking questions, or were coming out on strike or participating in the protests. So the CGIL also had to come out officially and say, 'Yes, if they touch the flotilla, if the Israelis attack the flotilla, we will call a general strike', which was the demand of the other USB union.

And so now they have no other alternative. They have called for a general strike in Italy tomorrow. Not just this smaller USB Union, but the CGIL which has 5 million members and has a majority in the metal workers sector and transport and so on.

So Italy tomorrow is going to be paralysed. And think about this, it's going to be paralysed by a general strike over a political issue. A political issue which is related to international solidarity against imperialism.

I would say this is unprecedented. There might be some precedent for this, but not in recent times. It is an extreme demonstration of this accumulated anger over the question of Palestine, which has radicalised many people across the world. And in Italy, someone has given a channel to this through this call for a general strike. It has provided a channel of expression.

Hamid
I think, I mean this really reflects the role of the trade union leaders and the leaders of the so called left, because what we often hear is – from these people in particular, but I mean, this is a general notion that communists hear on the left – is, 'Ah well, you know, people don't really want to fight. People don't really care. People are not really willing to sacrifice, and people are not really...' I mean, there's 1,000,001 variations of this argument.

But in reality, you see who are the ones who don't want to fight. The fact that it has come to the point where the rank and file of the workers movement is literally dragging their leaders under threat of what? They're afraid that if they don't follow suit, this movement is going to take off, run out of their control, and they lose their positions. This is what they care about, essentially, right?

But it also shows that for years they have been dragging their feet. In fact, they have been tacitly waiting, watching as attack after attack has been imposed on the working class, right? And not only is it, you know, this is again, 'Oh, the working class is very selfish.They only care about themselves.' As you say, this is a matter of international class solidarity. This is a pretty advanced concept. We will talk about consciousness and working class consciousness. And yet it is precisely on this matter that the Italian working class is dragging its leaders behind it. And the effect... we'll see, but it will be significant. Already we've seen... you told me about this, the blockade of several ports?

Jorge
Yes, this is the thing, because the USB is strong. This union is strong amongst the dockers in a number of ports, particularly in Livorno and Genoa, but also some other ports. And they've been talking about this, discussing this question, for several months. Dockers have taken action in Greece at the port of Piraeus. Dockers have taken action in Marseille and in some other ports around the world, particularly in Europe, to blockade shipments of weapons, ammunition and fuel for the Israeli war machine.

And in Italy, they had been discussing this question. So around this time of the general strike call on the 22nd the dockers decided, 'Yes, we're now gonna implement this. It's in our power to stop these shipments and these ships from coming in and out and being loaded and unloaded and transported in the harbours where we work.'

And so they took strike action. They refused. They pledged themselves to not handle any cargo for the Israeli war machine. And in the last week, since the 22nd, they have stopped a massive shipment of fuel from Eni, the Italian oil refining company, for the Israeli war machine. They stopped another ship called the Zim Virginia. I think Zim is a container ship company from Israel. So they were loading some war material at the port of Livorno, and the dockers stopped it. Then they attempted to do the same thing at the port of Genoa, it was also stopped.

And in this case, it's not just the dockers taking strike action, but also calling on the people from these towns to come and support them. Workers, students, in large numbers, hundreds of people. In the port of Livorno, I think the port has been blocked for about 10 days. Thousands of people participating in this around the clock blockade to check on every single ship that goes in and out whether it is related to the Israeli war machine or not. This is an example of the power of the working class.

Hamid
This shows the enormous power of the working class, which in most times, in ordinary times under capitalism, is only a potential. But here we see that actually nothing functions without the working class allowing it. Nothing works in this society without the permission of the working class. And therefore, the role the task of the leadership of the unions of the working class organisations is precisely to make this potential conscious, and by making it conscious, making it actual.

The workers are realising how powerful they are and what they have. But obviously this is what the bureaucracy fears more than anything, because they're afraid that it is going to run out of control.

Jorge
And in fact, at the weekend, there was a conference organised by the Genoa dockers, a conference of Dockers from all over Europe, and I think there were some from Tunisia as well, and Turkey. They had a conference to discuss this question, how to coordinate a workers' boycott of Israel, which is something that we've been saying for a long time.

And I think this is now becoming the conclusion of many, many people who are very angry over the genocide by Israel. That it is not just a question of marching from A to B. Mass demonstrations play obviously a big role, but now people want to take direct action to governments. This is one of the things that the dockers were saying at this conference, 'The governments should be implementing an embargo, a trade boycott of Israel. They're not doing it. We will do it.'

And this is very powerful conclusion that they have drawn. And I think that this is the way forward for the movement, really.

Hamid
I mean, in embryonic form, what's really posed in this very small situation is who has the power over society? Is it the bosses and the capitalists and the bankers who sit in their offices and tell us what to do, or is it people who actually carry it out? The working class?

And I think also what we've seen is, compared with the previous waves of class struggle we've seen in the past period – between 2008 and 2012, you had the Occupy movement, the Arab Revolutions – there's been a significant movement, as you say, towards direct action. Where before you had a lot of 'Let's go to a square and say that we don't like this,' and then, I guess the idea was somehow someone will do something about it.

Jorge
Through moral pressure

Hamid
Through moral pressure, and they will realise... kind of asking, in a way. Obviously, that was the first step, but also that was the level that the leadership of the movement kept it to.

But here you see that the pressure from below is moving increasingly in the direction of direct action. And this is a significant change in consciousness. And this is also where things start to change.

We saw in Egypt, for example, the Arab Revolution. In Egypt, you had week after week of people going to Tahrir Square in 2011 and 12. But it was right at the end when the working class started to move. The Mahala workers started to strike. Then the ruling class realised, 'Okay, we need to do something.' And Mubarak was overthrown, in order to for them to save the system.

What does this mean? This means that the ruling class is terrified of the idea that the working class should begin to understand the power that it wields.

Jorge
In fact, what's happening tomorrow in Italy is that there is this call for a general strike by the CGIL and the USB unions that represent millions of workers. And Salvini, who is the leader of Lega, one of the ruling coalition parties, and who is also the Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister of Transport – so this is the key, key question now – he said that he will not allow the unions to paralyse the country.

So we'll see. We'll see. I mean, the government said the country will not be paralysed, but I'm pretty sure, just judging by the mood of last night and today and the 22nd, the accumulation of anger and the willingness to take direct action by hundreds of thousands of people that tomorrow, Italy will be paralysed.

And this will not be the end of the movement. Then on the fourth, which is the Saturday, there's already been a call for a national demonstration in Rome, which will be huge. And then there will be pressure for the whole movement to continue. In fact, if there's any perspective for this movement, this movement should go all the way until they bring down this government, right? The potential is there.

There's another interesting question that I think we should highlight. Italy has a right wing government. A very right wing government. You know, Meloni in her youth was a member of a fascist youth organisation. No, no, she's not a fascist. It's not a fascist government, but it is a right-wing, Trump-aligned government in a major European country.

And many people may think, 'Okay, yeah, that means that the Italians are right wing.' But it doesn't mean any such thing.

You know, when this government was elected, it was elected because it was the only parties that were outside the previous coalition, which was carrying out austerity measures! So it was a rejection of the previous coalition. With a massive degree of abstention. I think Fred was talking about this the other week. And many people drew negative, pessimistic conclusions. 'Oh, the right wing is empowered in Italy.' Yeah, the right wing is empowered in Italy and the masses don't want it...

Hamid
Because they've been carrying out austerity. They've been highlighted as this great example of the European economy. They've stabilised... I mean, Italy still has 140 or 150.. a huge amount of debt. But the yearly added deficit, is brought down to 3% by what? Through cuts and attacks and austerity. And this is the result.

Now this movement, obviously, is not just about Gaza. It's an important element. But it's about all of the pent up anger over the years that's now finding an expression.

And I think, just to round up this segment, I think that the conclusions are also clear for the Palestine movement and for the people fighting in the unions, who are involved in all sorts of struggles on a daily basis, that these are all the same struggle, essentially. We will discuss in a minute the Gaza peace plan and all.

What are the forces on one side and what are the forces on the other side? The same people who are aiding Israel are the same people who are carrying out austerity. The movement is the result of the same system, of the capitalist system, and the movements should be united.

This is a lesson for anyone who is involved in the Palestine movement anywhere in the world. The next step is link up with the working class, and as wide and as radical protesters as possible. Link the demands for the end of the war in Gaza to the demands of austerity, to the demands of wages, to the demands of living standards that everyone in society feels.

And direct action. Call, prepare and campaign for a workers' boycott, for the working class to involve itself in an organised fashion, through the unions, through their other bodies in the struggle.

Jorge
And I think that this conclusion is already being drawn by many people. I saw there was a general strike in Greece yesterday,over some anti-labour laws that the government wants to pass, including allowing for a 13 hour working day. I mean, this is going back to the times of Engels, you know.

But anyway, in this general strike, many people were carrying Palestine flags. In the movement in France, which is over austerity measures, many people were carrying Palestine flags. So the two things are completely linked already in the minds of many people.

Before we move to the next segment – just to mention, in one sentence – the Spanish State, across Spain, is also another one to watch. Because this has had a big radicalising impact. Today, there's a nationwide student strike. There is also an education strike tomorrow, and pressure is building in the same direction as in Italy. And I've already seen images: thousands of students, university and high school students, in Madrid, in Bilbao, in Barcelona, across the country. The strike is solid. The student strike is solid, but there's also huge demonstrations already, and there will be more demonstrations tonight.

So these are two countries where the movement is perhaps more advanced.

Hamid
We're talking about: mass movement and student strike in Spain. Mass movements and strikes and blockades and q general strike in Italy, that's going to be in the next three or four days. General strike in France, general strike in Greece, all in the same week. What a week. What a week. We don't even have time to deal with half of this.

Let's move on. We will definitely return to all of these and keep an eye on it.

But before yesterday, the big news item of the week was Donald Trump's peace plan for Gaza. It's a pretty simple peace plan. Normally, these things are very complicated with lots of caveats and points. But, I feel like it's Donald Trump, who's written it. 20 points.

And what it basically is... First of all, it's been declared. It's not been negotiated with Hamas. It's been worked out by the Americans, with the leaders of the so-called Muslim world, the Muslim majority countries. And then Netanyahu, who has been flown to the US, and changed a whole lot of it.

And then it was just declared in a press conference, and Donald Trump said, 'Hamas has three days to accept this otherwise...' I mean, I don't know what otherwise would happen, because so far, Israel has been doing whatever they wanted to.

But the plan basically consists of this: within 72 hours of accepting the plan, Hamas has to release all of the hostages that they took on October 7th. Which is, I believe, 48 if I'm not mistaken. Of which I think 20 are believed to be alive. Oh, and at the same time, disarm.

Once, that's done Israel, in that period, Israel will withdrawal from a very small part of Gaza. Once all of that is done, Israel will release 250 lifetime prisoners out of the 300 that they hold, which are mainly Hamas operatives and so on. 1700 other prisoners that have been arrested in the last couple of years.

And then on the basis of a international peacekeeping force being organised by Muslim majority countries – I think the countries that have been mentioned is Indonesia, Jordan, Egypt – they would move in to patrol Gaza, essentially, while Hamas disarms entirely.

Then at a certain point, Israel will withdraw. Although they will keep a buffer zone. Someone said that buffer zone is actually about 25% of the Gaza Strip. I don't know if that's true or not...

Jorge
And then there will be an authority made up of an international, Muslim-based military force, then a technocratic... I hesitate to call it a government.

Hamid
It's a company. It's a corporation.

Jorge
A technocratic committee of Palestinian people who are not linked to any parties. And then on top of this, a company, as you said, which was going to be run by Tony Blair and Donald Trump himself, taking all the executive decisions.

Hamid
And then at a certain point, the Palestinian Authority is reformed. I don't know what that means. The Palestinian Authority is hated, because it's basically the prison wardens of the Palestinians. Then they will take it over.

Jorge
So the first thing that we need to say is that this is not really a peace plan. This is a plan for the surrender of the Palestinians and the continued subjugation of the Palestinians. The Palestinians have no agency in this. They have no right to have their own homeland or their own decisions or their own democracy, nothing. They're going to be ruled by an international committee, foreign troops and so on.

Hamid
This is supported by the international community.

Jorge
And still, Israel will keep troops inside Gaza, ready to enter at any time when the Palestinians have already disarmed and they can't resist in any way. There's no mention of the West Bank either.

Hamid
No. And the Palestinian people are the biggest losers of this. I think that's absolutely clear. And the idea of a Palestinian homeland is further away than ever before. If this plan was to be implemented, which is the question that arises.

Now let's go through it step by step, because we have to look at all the different players here, what their interests are.

Now, first of all, it's clear that, as brutal and oppressive as this is, it still remains that Benjamin Netanyahu's main war aims have not really been met.

It's not clear really what happens to Hamas. First of all, we have to say, well. We'll get back to that. But the original draft said that Hamas would give up its offensive arms. But this draft, which was changed by Netanyahu in a meeting with Trump immediately before the press conference, states that it's all weapons...

But Hamas gets to stay in Gaza. It's not really disbanding itself. It's got popular support, I think that's quite clear in Gaza. So Hamas is not really gone. And the idea of Hamas giving up its weapons can't really be checked and verified either.

Hamas is still there. The hostages have not been recovered, and the newly declared aim of annexation of Gaza and Gaza City has not been met at all either.

Meanwhile, there's mass dissatisfaction in Israel. We saw mass protests throughout the summer. In fact, a large degree of solidarity, even, with the Palestinians, who are being slaughtered openly and in the most brutal fashion, obviously.

And so Israel's war aims have not really been met, and this is a big problem for Netanyahu. He also stands to lose power. We'll get to that. But why does Donald Trump want this? That's the main question.

Jorge
Donald Trump doesn't want peace, by the way. He wants stability, or stabilisation. He doesn't want this really disruptive situation, from his point of view.

Hamid
Exactly. He's made it clear from the beginning: the Middle East and the wars is a distraction from America's real problems. China is the main one. He doesn't want to be dragged into these wars. Now he has been dragged into one. And he's probably going to be dragged into quite a few, few other was, there's another question.

He probably doesn't want the Nobel Peace Prize. I think he is a narcissist. I mean, that's obviously true.

But Israel's conduct has undermined US imperialism and the interests of US imperialism. Now, about a month ago, we saw the complete insane attack of Israel on Doha in Qatar, where they bombed the building where Hamas negotiators were supposed to meet and discuss the negotiations that were taking place with the US.

So here you have America negotiating with Hamas and Israel just brazenly bombing them in the country that hosts the biggest US military base in the region. This was a huge provocation. This was a provocation, obviously, against Hamas. This shows that Netanyahu is not interested in any form of peace. He's not interested in that. But it's also a slap in the face of America, of Trump. It's basically spitting in his face, saying, 'You need me more than I need you', which is partially true.

But what does it mean for for for the US? Qatar was supposed to be safe. By hosting a US military base, it's supposed to get at least US military protection, air defence. It didn't get any such thing. And this has been the case throughout the past two years, that Israel has broken any agreement with anyone that existed in the Middle East, which has led to what?

The biggest, I think, reflection of this has been a defence deal between Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, which is a huge thing. Now, Pakistan used to be an American proxy. Today it's a Chinese proxy. They've made a defence pact, which means that Pakistan will come to the defence of Saudi Arabia by any means necessary. Which also includes nuclear bombs, by the way. Pakistan is a nuclear state. Which means what? Which means they can't depend on America.

Jorge
Yes. And there was also a meeting of the Arab League, in which they talked about the creation of an Arab NATO military pact amongst themselves. I don't think that this is going to go all the way, but what it reflects is that some of these countries are now thinking quite rightly that, 'Look, being an ally of the United States doesn't protect us. Maybe we should find other allies.' And this is not in the interest of the United States.

We have seen this process again and again in the past few years. The aggressive actions of US imperialism and its allies in attempting to maintain the position of the super domination of every part of the world is pushing more countries into the arms of China, which has now become a pole of attraction on a world scale.

Hamid
And obviously, this was a big deal. And there's now reports that Donald Trump actually panicked after this event, and he forced Netanyahu to sign this deal, which he clearly did not want to sign.

Jorge
But we know Netanyahu. No, I'm just saying. The minute after he signs a deal, then he goes back to Israel, or he goes on a press conference, and then he gives a slightly different version of the deal he's just signed, and then he starts blaming Hamas for breaking a deal that he has broken himself first, and he can get out of any amount of pressure from Trump, I think.

Hamid
Yes, because Trump needs him. You know, there's an old saying 'Sometimes it's better have someone in the tent pissing out, then outside of the tent pissing in.'

And Netanyahu, for better or for worse, is on Trump's wing of the internal struggle within US imperialism. He's a Trump ally, and Netanyahu is opponent, Gantz, is a liberal and an old school liberal and a neocon and so on. Well, these guys are also neocons. But he's a liberal, which means that Trump can't really afford to lose Netanyahu, and Netanyahu knows this.

And America as a whole, the American ruling class, cannot afford to lose Israel, as an ally. And as they get more and more isolated, and as their influence wanes in the Middle East as a whole, they're more and more dependent on Israel as the foremost outpost of imperialist domination.

Jorge
In effect, what Trump is trying to do is impossible to achieve in the long term. I mean, in his previous administration, he brokered the Abraham Accords. The basic idea was, 'Let's have normalisation between the Arab countries and Israel. And on this basis, then we promote trade and economic development and so on.'

But in reality, there cannot be any normalisation between the Arab countries and Israel as long as the question of Palestine remains like an open wound in the in the region.

Why? Not because the Arab countries, or the leaders of the Arab countries, care about the fate of the Palestinians. No. Because what they care about is the radicalising effect that the Palestinian struggle and the genocide of Gaza is having in their own populations, in places like Jordan, Egypt, also Saudi Arabia, also Turkey, where people are saying, 'What are you doing? Right? We supposed to be all part of the same Muslim brotherhood. But nevertheless, you are allowing our brothers and sisters in Gaza to be to be slaughtered. Slaughtered as is being live broadcast throughout the world for two years running, and you're not doing anything.'

And this is, and this is creating revolutionary conditions in these countries, for potential uprisings. And that's the last thing that they want, that the King of Saudi Arabia wants.

Hamid
Precisely. Now, what does Benjamin Netanyahu want? First of all, he wants to stay in power. He likes that. And he wants to stay out of prison. And we know as soon as this government falls, and as soon as the wars end, he's bound to go to prison.

Apparently there's now talk about giving him amnesty, giving him way out. But he's also a narcissist, and he will not accept that. He will not accept that. He will go.... And he did. He stood there next to Trump in the press conference, and kind of looked a bit subdued, and said, 'Yes, yes.' But then as soon as he went back he said, 'Oh, we will never accept anything like this. And we will never...' He started walking back on all of these things. And his coalition partners said that they will leave the government

Jorge
Yes. Netanyahu has his own very powerful interests which play a major role in this whole situation. But we also need to understand that the Zionist ruling class for the last 80 years has always acted in the same way. Perhaps not in a crazy way like Netanyahu. But anytime there's been a conflict, they've taken more land.

Their ambition is for a Greater Israel that is secure in its borders, and the only way they can secure Israel's borders, from their point of view, is by smashing the Palestinians, removing them from all the lands where they still are.

And this includes not only Gaza, but also the West Bank. While everyone's looking at Gaza, for the last two years, they've been attacking the West Bank, entering the Palestinian refugee camps, killing people, arresting people, and encroaching even more in the West Bank, which is really not a Palestinian territory at all. It's crossed by checkpoints and roads and so on.

And the latest one is that they've said openly, or they're talking very, very aggressively about annexing the West Bank. So I'm also thinking whether this Trump peace plan, which talks only about Gaza, means that perhaps Trump has hinted at giving the Israelis a free hand to annex the West Bank formally.

Hamid
I mean, the Israeli ruling class needs the conflict. One thing is they want to annex, and they want to expand. That's built into their DNA. But also built into the DNA is the conflict with the Palestinians. Because that is how they justify themselves as a defender of the Jews.

It's clear, I mean, for decades, it's been public knowledge that Israel had a great hand in bringing Hamas to power, supporting Hamas, as opposed to the left wing factions of the Palestinian movement. In order to what? In order to say, we can't negotiate with these people.

They need this, this thing. And they've all been... This is not just Netanyahu's project. They've all been a part of this.

Furthermore, to let Arab armies back into the West Bank and Gaza... this is never going to happen. And it's all based on what? On the goodwill of Israel. Once Hamas has given up its arms and its hostages – that is the only negotiating card it has – then we should trust Israel will do the right thing and pull out.

Jorge
Not completely.

Hamid
Not completely. They pull out and then give a... I mean, because obviously it's such a dependable and trustworthy regime, isn't it? It's complete nonsense.

Now, I don't think this... I mean, I think already they are trying to put the blame on each other, on Hamas, and say that this is not gonna... I cannot see, even in this extremely watered-down version, how the Israelis can accept this plan.

But then there's Hamas. I mean, they get the release of 250 lifetime prisoners, 1700 ordinary people who've been taking hostage by Israel in the past two years. But it has to give up all of its arms. It has to give up all its hostages, as we just said. All of it's levers.

And as an organisation... never mind what it would give to the Palestinian people. Obviously, it would leave them defenceless. But why would Hamas accept this? It's clear that they have been saying, 'We can give up all offensive arms', which was originally in the plan.

But here's the interesting thing, the original plan drafted between the Americans and the Arab Muslim leaders stated, 'There was a clearer timeline for withdrawal of the Israelis. There was a specific mentioning of Hamas giving up its offensive capabilities, but not its defensive capabilities.'

All of that was wiped away by Netanyahu, and then, as we said, publicised to the world. But they still went ahead with it. There's now so many articles in the Middle Eastern press and the Pakistani press and so on. People say, 'Oh, this is not the agreement that we signed up to,' with very angry voices.

But they're still going along with it. Because obviously they don't care. As you said, they don't care about the Palestinians. They just want to end this because it's destabilising them back home. And if they can get a deal where they get a say in Gaza. They can normalise things with the Israelis. They can get trade going. They can make money. Who cares about the Palestinians? They've sold them out, essentially. And now this is what we see: a united international community against the people of Gaza.

Jorge
And this includes, by the way, all those people who last week, or 10 days ago at the UN General Assembly, were saying, 'Oh, we recognise the Palestinian state.' Which Palestinian state? Where is it? What does it mean?

And all these people have now come out and said, including the Spanish president, Pedro Sanchez, who's the most vocal person, who said, 'Oh, this is a genocide'. They've now said, 'Oh, I welcome the Trump Gaza peace plan, because this is the way forward.'

Hamid
Yeah, and the Muslim leaders, by the way, just to add, they will end up as the prison wardens of the Palestinians. Because what's going to happen in Gaza at the first food protests, or whatever thing there is? Or if Israeli attacks again? Which side are these people going to be on?

But in doing so, they're also playing with fire, because then they're internalising the Palestinian struggle into their own country, which is what they want to avoid at any cost. I'm sure the Americans have really squeezed them to bring them on board with this.

Jorge
And probably, I will say, probably, Trump has also got a commitment, or extracted by force, a commitment from these countries that they will pay for any economic reconstruction in Gaza. Because the last thing that Trump wants to do is spend any money in this.

Hamid
Now the question is, what about the Palestinians? What's going to happen to the Palestinian struggle? As we said before, there's all of this effort, the heroic defence against the Israelis that the Palestinians have waged in the past two years and for decades, really. The heroic movements of the masses all over the world in support of them.

The vast majority of the world's population is clearly in support of the Palestinian cause. Millions and millions of people have taken to the streets and protested in one way or another. There's been a flurry of diplomacy and negotiations. Talks.

What has achieved anything? I think that's an important question to ask, because, you know this idea of, 'Let's just go to another protest.' Of course, it's important to go to protests. It's important to go to marches. But is that enough? And I think it's clear that it's not.

Now one thing that has come out – It's a very small thing, but it's significant, because even that the bourgeois gave with gritted teeth – is the recognition of Palestine as a state. We know it doesn't count for anything. It doesn't mean anything.

Jorge
But they were forced to make this gesture by the pressure of public opinion,

Hamid
And protest, mass protests. The bourgeois have a bird's eye view of society. They can see what's going on through their intelligence agencies and all other means and methods they have. They know a lot more than we know the anger that's rife in society.

And so what we see in Italy exploding to the surface, and in Greece and Spain and so on, they've been seeing that coming for a while. That's what they're afraid of. They're afraid of the class struggle, which is why they're moving in the direction that they have.

So the only thing that actually works, the only time the Palestinians have actually gained anything, I would say the first time was the First Intifada, which led to the Oslo Accords, which is a betrayal of a revolution. But, nevertheless, it gave a semblance of a state.

And now we have this, again, on the basis of mass protest of the working class and the youth all over the world, which gave a little, tiny result.

And I think there's a commonality there. It's the revolutionary movement, it's direct action, it's working class movements.

Jorge
This is really the only way forward. In the West, in the western imperialist countries, mass action – not just protests, but mass direct action and workers boycott i.e the working class taking the lead of this movement in order to actually hit the Israeli war machine. As the Italian Dockers are saying, if the governments won't do it, we will do it. I.e direct action by the working class.

And in the Middle East, the same thing. The masses of the Middle East are seething with discontent over social and economic questions, but also over the fate of the Palestinians.

And if they were to overthrow these regimes in Jordan, in Saudi Arabia, in Egypt, then you would have a completely different balance of forces in the region. A revolutionary Jordan, a revolutionary Egypt, would change the whole balance in relation to the struggle of the Palestinians, and would also lead – in my opinion, this will happen sooner or later – to divisions within Israel, which already we can see in outline, divisions within Israel between the ruling class and an increasing number of people who can see that, unless the question of the Palestinian struggle is resolved in a democratic way, that there will not be peace for for the Jewish population of Israel.

Hamid
Yes. It's very clear you have western imperialism as the main backer, without which Israel could never survive, which is the same as the Western ruling class, we have explained this many times. You have the Arab leaders who are also connected to the West.

You do have another faction of the Middle Eastern capitalist class, which is Iran, and, you know, Hezbollah and so on. But the point is, even they have shortcomings. They do fight against imperialism, but it's a bourgeois anti imperialism they have. And their anti imperialism has a limit to it, because what is it that the Iranian regime wants?

A deal. That's what they want. It's not about defending Gaza. We have to say they're the only ones who've done anything. So from that point of view, they've done more than any other...

But bourgeois anti imperialism has a limit, and the limit is the immediate interest of the capitalist class. In fact, the way that they have governed Iran has been what? Mass dissatisfaction with them, because the same corruption that exists everywhere also exists inside Iran.

In Iraq, where they have had huge influence, what's it led to? It's actually led to mass rejection of Iran, and a confused relationship to Palestine. In Iraq, there's not a clear cut widespread support because the Iranian regime is kind of trying to present it as their cause, they're monopolising it. So actually, they've divided the working class.

In Lebanon it's the same thing. Obviously Hezbollah is seen as the most... they have been defending Lebanon more than any other force. All the other forces capitulated to Western imperialism, so they have a high star from that point of view.

But nevertheless, after years of de facto being in power and sharing in government, there was a revolutionary movement against them in 2018. And today there is a lukewarm, a distrustful attitude, even though a lot of people still support them, but people don't forget these things.

And there's a limit to how far these people will go. There's a limit to what they will appeal to, and that obviously puts a limit on what they will what they will actually do for Gaza.

They've been trying to say, 'No, let's sit down and let's organise it through international committees, where we can have a part, where we can be members, where we can be equals to the West as a major power in the region.' And obviously that's not going to solve the situation for the Palestinians.

But then you have the working class, let's say in Jordan. They've been calling for the for the regime to intervene militarily. In movement after movement. Millions of them. Well, that does show what can be done. But the king is not going to do it. The royal family is not going to do it. The workers must take power themselves.

Jorge
The regime in Jordan's been actually part of defending Israel.

Hamid
Yes, when Iran has been lobbying missiles, they've been shooting them down. Now there was the Colombian President Petro. He's been out with some comments.

Jorge
Yes, he was at the he was at the United Nations General Assembly, and he said, 'Well, look, I mean, this is no longer a question of resolutions and declarations. We need to organise' – This is what he said – 'You need to organise an international army of volunteers to go and fight, to defend the Palestinians.'

I'd say that's that's completely correct. I mean, I have a doubt about whether he's actually going to do it, or if he has the capacity or the willingness to actually carry out his words into action. But his words are completely correct.

He's saying basically, 'What is the international community doing? Nothing it's just passing resolution after resolution after resolution, and nothing actually happens. Something must be done which is practical.' And he has even said, 'We're going to raise an army in Colombia'.So we will see what happens.

But he's been at least the most advanced, the most radical of all the governments in the world in relation to this question of Israel. Yesterday – he'd already cut off diplomatic relations with Israel – but yesterday he finally decreed the expulsion of the remaining diplomatic personnel of Israel. He suspended the free trade agreement they have with Israel.

I think there are specific reasons for this, because Israel played a big role in supporting and arming and training the right wing governments and the paramilitary militias in Colombia for a long time. And obviously the people of Colombia don't forget about this. This is a point that comes very close to home. But yes, what he's saying is correct. Something must be done that is practical, not just talk and resolutions.

Hamid
Yes. The point is, obviously, who should direct that army. And the only people who have an interest is the working class. So that puts the question of power, state power, and which class wields that power on the table. Obviously, Petro is not going to give the answer for that. He's, I mean, he's saying it for whatever, his own reasons.

But it does show that there is no shortcut. The idea that, 'Oh, we, you know, it's utopian. It's utopian to talk about revolution and revolutionary change.' This is something that's often brought up against communism.

What is actually a utopia is that the methods that are used now – negotiations, diplomacy, petitions, moral pressure, individual boycotts – that that's going to actually change anything on the ground. It's not, it's not going to change anything. Why would the Israeli ruling class – a powerful ruling class with a powerful military force, one of the most powerful in the world – give up on any of that. And why would US imperialism or western imperialism do that? They're benefiting off of this, obviously.

Okay, I think we should move on, because there's been big events happening. I mean, it's such a whirlwind of events. Every day there's like a new country erupting in general strikes, mass movements, mass protests. And now is Madagascar and Morocco. Where should we start?

Jorge
Maybe Madagascar. Madagascar started a little bit earlier, I think, than Morocco.

This is part of this so called Gen Z revolution. This been happening in Indonesia and Nepal, in East Timor, in the Philippines. But it's now crossed the Pacific. There's now big movements in Peru, in Ecuador. The movement Ecuador is slightly different. Then in Paraguay there was a demonstration at the weekend.

And the common theme of all these movements is that the youth have had enough, and are organising – through social media, influencers, sometimes musicians and young people – through social media are organising protests against corruption, against the disparity of wealth and so on.

So what happened in Madagascar was that on the 25th of September – so that's last Thursday – there was a call for a protest, and the protest was over water and electricity cut offs, which sometimes run into 12 hours a day. So this is an unbearable situation.

Madagascar is an extremely unequal society where 79% of the population live under the poverty line. It's dominated by imperialism, by French imperialism, by US imperialism, and now also the Chinese are investing in Madagascar.

And while the population live in extreme poverty, there is a small layer of people at the top who are extremely wealthy, who flaunt their wealth, who are involved in all sorts of corruption scandals.

And so there the beginning of a protest. The protest took place in Antananarivo, the capital, and also in a number of other cities across the country. And immediately it was met with brutal police repression.

Then there was looting and setting of buildings on fire and clashed with the police. And on the first day, I think it was five, six people died, according to an official account. I think it's probably more than that.

And this, again, like in all these other countries: brutal repression, instead of stopping the movement in its tracks, just made people angrier, particularly the youth. And then the movement went on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday...

And then on Tuesday, they called for a day of national mobilisation. And this was now a united call by all the student organisations from the main university campuses, together with 'Gen Z Madagascar movement'. And Tuesday was like a tour de force between the government, the authorities, and the people.

The demonstrators had said that they will march into the centre of the capital Antananarivo and the police and the gendarmerie, as it's called, they said, 'You're not going to march here.'

And there were columns of people, even some coming from 30 kilometres away, marching on foot to the centre of the capital. The police tried to block them. They couldn't. I've seen the images: just people just passing through the police lines with their hands raised. The police afraid to use brutal repression because it had not worked the previous time. And then all these columns converging. The police tried to divert them to some stadium outside of the city centre, but they wanted to go to the city centre.

And finally, they managed to cross the police lines. And there were huge columns coming from all parts, mainly of youth. But now by Tuesday, this was already a movement which involved the local population, peasants, the poor people, and it was a huge demonstration in the capital. But also at the same time, huge demonstrations everywhere else.

And finally, they managed to reach the May 13 square, which is where independence was proclaimed in 1960s. It was highly symbolic. Here again, there was police repression, but the masses had already won the day.

And now – this was on Tuesday. On Monday evening, the president had already dismissed the government as a concession to the movement, which didn't work either. The movement now adopted more demands. One, the dismissal of the President, the arrest and seizure of properties of this guy called – I have to read it because I can't remember – Ravatomanga who's the main businessman, one of the main businessmen, in Madagascar, who's very close to the president Rajoelina, and he's involved in all sorts of corruption scandals. He has his finger in all pies of the economy.

So they said that this guy needs to be arrested, put on trial, and his property seized, which is very important.

The trade unions started to join in. The union of the electricity and water company workers declared a strike. The health workers threatened to go out on strike. The public civil servants, they are also going out on strike. So the working class is starting to join the movement.

And the movement is no longer interested in negotiations with this president. They want him out. And not only this, they also said that they should disband the Senate, the high Constitutional Court and the National Electoral Commission.

Basically the movement now adopted the demand that all power should be dissolved, and power should be returned to the people. And they're calling it a national uprising, an uprising for the nation. And I think that this is completely correct.

There are still many confused ideas in the movement, but the movement is advancing, it's felt its own strength, and is going forward. And this is very important.

The only thing I would say is that: You're saying that all power should be dissolved. What are you going to put in its place? There's still a lot of confusion about that.

What we would say as communists is that the masses should take power. They should form committees, democratic committees, in every neighbourhood, in every city, in every village, and they should elect delegates to a national congress of revolutionary delegates and take power. Take not only political power, but also economic power. Expropriate the imperialists, repudiate the foreign debt and expropriate the main means of production in the island, and take power into their own hands.

That's that's the next step. It's difficult to see that they will go in this direction, because there isn't a conscious revolutionary leadership in this movement. But certainly, I will say, they're very close to overthrowing the whole regime, and then the question will be open, what comes after.

Hamid
They're learning through practice. That's the point that most ordinary people don't learn through books. They don't read history and theory and philosophy and so on, as as most communists do. But they learn through action.

Trotsky said that the most important aspect of revolution is the entrance of the masses onto the stage of politics. In normal times, people say, 'Oh, okay, who am I to say anything? I don't know. There are people who are much, much better...'

Jorge
Politicians, lawyers, journalists.

Hamid
'They are a lot more clever than I am.' That's what ordinary working class people say. But in a revolutionary situation, that's when ordinary people rise up and say, 'No, I can't stand this anymore. I want to have a say'.

And people interfere. And this entrance, the direct action of the masses has a profoundly educational effect. And it galvanises things. You know, very quickly you go from a general kind of protest to actually calling for the whole regime to fall.

If you asked most Madagascans last week, they would never have been able to predict this. And this is the problem with the left, to have a go at them again. They always look at the still picture.

Jorge
As it is.

Hamid
As it is, and they don't understand the development that wants to take place. Because once the masses go into action, then they begin to sense and begin to feel, first of all, their own power, their own potential. But also they begin to understand the beast that they're dealing with. If they have illusions in the police, the first baton charge will dispel that illusion. You know.

And now they're focusing on one businessman. He may or may not be arrested, something may or may not happen to him. But sooner or later, they're going to realise it's not just one businessman. It's the class of business people. That's the problem, and they're all linked to the state apparatus, which is the main weapon that they wield in order to maintain their properties.

That is, basically, a summed up theory of Marxism. The Marxist theory of the state.

Jorge
The thing is that, because there isn't a conscious revolutionary party at the head of this movement, the movement can go very far, but it can be also diverted in all sorts of ways, as we have seen in Nepal, in Bangladesh and in Sri Lanka.

And I think that it's possible also that in Madagascar... I mean, things change hour by hour and day by day, when there is a revolutionary situation. But there is a possibility that somehow the President is removed– this is quite likely, I'd say – and then is replaced by some other neutral figure. I don't know. Someone from the church, or some independent lawyer, or some some figure that's not completely tainted with the power.

Hamid
A liberal.

Jorge
And then they may bring even some of the student leaders on board, as they did in Bangladesh.

But the problem is that unless the capitalist system, which is at the root of these economic problems – the water and electricity cut offs and so on. Unless the capital system is abolished, then you can have a clean government or government with very good intentions that comes to power and then doesn't solve anything. And a few years or a few months down the line, people will come out on the streets again.

In fact, this is what's already happened in Madagascar, because the president, Rajoelina came to power in 2009 after a big movement against corruption and the previous regime. And he was a youthful figure. I think it was a music producer or something. He was outside of politics. He came to power.

And now, what's happening 10, 15 years later? People are rising again, and he is as involved in corruption and capitalist austerity measures, privatisation and so on, as this previous government. That's a warning.

Hamid
That is a warning. And the only way to actually change things is by mobilising against the system as a whole. Now, Morocco.

Before that, I wanted to say, you know. I remember when I was a young man. I'm still young. 25.

But I remember... I mean, I came from a communist family, so I was always a communist. But I remember talking with people about communism and revolution. People would look at me like I was strange and weird. The most sympathetic response I would get normally – this is when I was a teenager – would be, 'Well, yeah, I mean, it's a good idea, but you couldn't do it unless you did it all over the world, and that will never happen.'

World Revolution is happening

Jorge
Now it seems to be happening in front of our eyes!

Hamid
We're not standing in the communist revolution. We're in the early stages of a process. But this is vindicating every idea of Marx, isn't it?

Capitalism is a world system and creates the same conditions everywhere. This system. It's a disgrace, actually. It's a condemnation of capitalism that has developed technology as incredibly as it has – AI and robotics and this and that. And yet you have situations with mass unemployment, mass poverty, the most basic infrastructure falling apart.

Jorge
Electricity cut offs.

Hamid
Electricity, water. Which is basic stuff. They can't even do that and obviously it's going to lead to...

Jorge
This is what some people don't understand. Some people say, 'Oh, this is a conspiracy. You know, somehow the United States, or George Soros is financing all these revolutions.'

It makes no sense. It's the same theory that says that when there is a strike in a factory it's because of outside communist agitators, you know? And it is actually the conditions that the masses are under which is the result of the crisis of capitalism, that's creating exactly the same conditions all over the world. And this is why these revolutions jump from one place to another, because people take inspiration.

Hamid
And now it's not just in the poor countries, but also in the rich countries. Again, Italy, Greece, Spain.

Jorge
France.

Hamid
France, and even in Britain, I think everyone can feel something is brewing. There's warning signs all the time.

And even in Britain, you know, they used to say, 'Oh, no, corruption and mismanagement is just a Third World...' We don't have a proper water company either!

Jorge
No, that's right.

Hamid
We should have water protests for the amount they charge us. You know, the Thames Water...

Jorge
And the pollution and the dirty character of the water...

Hamid
They've polluted all of the waterways. They've dumped millions of litres of sewage and all sorts of chemicals into the waterways and the water companies are falling apart. The pipes are bursting. There's been no investment. They privatised it.

Jorge
And this is corruption because, because the shareholders are giving themselves massive bonuses and dividends.

Hamid
Yeah, and not investing in anything. You go to the US, infrastructure, the whole country is falling apart. On the basis of what? The same thing.

Jorge
Private profit.

Hamid
Well, let's move on to Morocco. Because... we can just continue the same conversation, because it's exactly the same thing

Jorge
Exactly the same thing. In Morocco, the protests started in the middle of September. There was an incident in Agadir where it was revealed that in the local hospital, eight pregnant women had died because of the lack of proper care while undergoing the pregnancy and going into labour, I think a caesarean operation. Anyway, eight women had died because of the lack of proper medical care.

And then a movement started. There was a call for protests, and they called it GenZ212. Gen Z for Generation Z. And 212, is the International dialling code for Morocco. So this is a Moroccan movement.

And what the youth who were behind this movement were demanding was very simple, very basic things. We need proper health care and proper education. We shouldn't be spending money on flashy stadiums for the World Cup when we can't provide for healthcare and education. This comes first. They're very basic demands.

This is Morocco. It's a very repressive regime. And the government – the regime, the king, the monarchy has perfected the methods of repression. So the moment 5, 10, 15 people get together in a street corner, and start shouting slogans, the police is already there, and they start arresting people, bundling them into police vans and taking them away.

Hundreds of people have been arrested in the last few days. The movement started on the weekend, Saturday, Sunday, and hundreds of people have already been arrested.

But again, like in Madagascar, like in Nepal, repression did not stop the movement. The movement was growing and growing. The example given by a few, few small youth who came at the beginning was followed by more and more people.

The slogan was, 'The people want the fall of corruption.' At the beginning, it wasn't even openly directed against the regime, but just on these specific demands. But people knew what was behind that, obviously. And then the movement was growing, growing. There were now demonstrations of hundreds of people, of thousands of people. Everywhere. Casablanca. Fes, Meknes, Agadir. Larache. In Oujda. In Tetouan, in Tangiers. Everywhere.

And then police repression became more brutal because the police were losing control. And in Oujda, for instance, they rammed a police van at high speed at the demonstrators. And they ran over this one person who is now fighting for his life in hospital. It's not very clear what will happen.

And this enraged people even more. In a number of suburbs and small towns near Agadir, the people just took to the streets and they assaulted the police stations. Two people were killed yesterday. They overturned police cars, they set them on fire, they set banks on fire and buildings and so on.

And there was brutal repression. And people were fighting back. This is the interesting thing. People were not being cowed by repression, by fighting back. And by yesterday, the images I saw yesterday, of demonstrations in Casablanca, in Tetouan, these were now thousands of people coming out on the streets. The police unable to stop this movement.

And yes, it's developing a dynamic of its own. And people are now saying, the people now calling more openly for the fall of the regime, starting with the head of the government. But also, people are already saying, 'We want a republic, right.' We want an end to this repressive regime of the king and it has strong revolutionary potential.

There's a comrade in Tetouan who was commenting on these demonstrations, and he made a very interesting comment. He said, 'Look, I know quite a lot of people here in Tetouan, and I went to this demonstration and I didn't know anyone. These are not the usual activists, or the activists from the previous generation that came out in 2011, 2012 in the 20 February movement. These are not the same people. This is a new generation, younger people, who are not afraid. They're organising themselves through Discord and social media.'

And he also noted that there is a large presence of young women, which in a country like Morocco, is also very significant. They're not afraid. They're talking to the media. They're showing their faces. And this is what's encouraging other people to come out.

Now, it's very difficult to know exactly how this is going to develop, but what it reveals is an accumulation of discontent and anger. And yeah, the Moroccan regime of King Mohammed VI is particularly disgusting in the obscene opulence and flaunting of wealth. He has a watch which is worth $1.2 million, that is made of gold with I don't know how many diamonds and stones.

And this is not his only watch. In fact, there was a case recently where there was some plot by some of the cleaning personnel to steal 16, I think it was 16, of his watches. So it's not just one watch. I mean, it's just completely obscene.

Hamid
While the vast majority of the population...

Jorge
Live in poverty. Or are forced to emigrate.

Hamid
Yeah. I mean, again, we see the same phenomenon, the youth playing the main role. This is a generation that's grown up in the post-2008 period.

Now we have to say, in a country like Morocco, even before that, things were not easy for ordinary people. But the new generation everywhere that's grown up has only seen increasing attacks on their conditions. They have no perspective of a better life. No future to really think, 'Oh, I can build a life, or I can build a society, or I can build anything' except for kind of wasting away in a coffee shop or on the side of some street. That's what millions of young people in North Africa, in the Middle East and so on. This was a reason for the Arab revolution.

But I would say the generation that's come out now is even less tainted by the illusions of the previous generation. Because the previous generation had this idea that, 'Oh, there used to be something better. There's something more to be gained. At least in Europe, they're living better than us, and we can be...'

I don't see that today. There's a mass rejection of everything that exists today, the whole system, the system as a whole.

Now, there has been leftists coming out in Morocco. We have an article, a very good article, about this on the website. By the way, we have articles about most of this material today, and we'll put it in the reading list for this episode.

But people on the left saying, 'Oh, these people are just fighting against corruption, and they have illusions in the king, and they have illusions in democracy or in this and that, and this is not really our movement.'

But they're completely missing the point. They're completely missing the point that precisely, again, direct action is educating the masses. Now you say, I didn't realise this, that the main slogans are to bring down the whole regime. Two days ago, it was just slogans about corruption, and the king is just...

It reminds me of 1905, in Russia, you had a revolutionary movement.

Jorge
A petition. It started with a petition to the Tsar!

Hamid
A mass of workers going to the Tsar, led by a priest, who was a police agent, with a letter saying, 'Dear little Father, we are starving. We're hungry. Please help us there. There are corrupt elements out there.' I can't remember it exactly. Appealing to the king, to the Tsar, to support them. And what did the king do? He mowed them down. There was a Bloody Sunday. It killed lots of people.

And within 24 hours. Alan always says this. Within 24 hours, the same workers who, the day before, would be beating up the Bolsheviks and the communists in the factories, running to them, asking for weapons, asking for arms.

And it's a similar process we see here today. Under the impact of events, they're realising, 'No, the problem is not just one corrupt lawyer or businessman or judiciary, or whatever. It's the system as a whole.' And what they want is participation. They want to be able to decide.

Jorge
And any of these cynical leftists who can't see this, well, good luck to them. I mean, real revolutionary communists do not demand from a movement a clean bill of health, that you need to comply with all this and have a full understanding of everything.

If a movement had already a full understanding of all its tasks and aims and methods and objectives, then there wouldn't be a need for a revolutionary party. This is what Marx says in the Communist Manifesto system, "The communists do not set themselves apart and separate from the movement, but they have the advantage that in any movement of the working class, they are the ones who have a clearer vision of what is the final aim, final goals of the movement and the necessary methods to achieve it." And this is the role of a revolutionary party.

Hamid
Our task is to help the process of growth of consciousness move as smoothly and as fast as possible. As the working class and the youth go through these events and become more and more aware of their own interests, their own power, their own abilities and their own tasks, we can help them along this path.

We can help them, not by coming out and telling them what they know. This is the other side of it, because then there are people who say, 'Oh, we shouldn't give a lead. We should just explain to them, we should just kind of emphasise or echo back what people are saying'.

No. We've studied this. The class struggle is not something new. It's been taking place for thousands of years, and under capitalism for several hundered years, with wave after wave of revolutionary movements, most of which have been defeated.

But in those defeats, there are powerful lessons, and the task of the communists is to absorb those lessons and to disseminate them, and in doing so, gain the trust and the leadership of the working class to lead it the final conclusion of each and every one of these movements.

Jorge
In fact, last night, I was watching this question of the flotilla, of the spontaneous movement in Italy. And I was thinking, 'My goodness, all these things have been happening in less than a month.'

The Nepalese movement started on the 8th of September. The French movement started on the 10th of September. It's not even a month, and so many things have happened. It's really shocking to ourselves who are following this closely.

And then I thought, let me re-read the world perspectives document. The Revolutionary Communist International had a World Congress in August. We discussed the document, analysing the world situation.

And if you read the last two sections of that document, it talks about all of this. It says "the radicalisation of the youth is a major factor in all of this. Explosive conditions exist everywhere in the world. People shouldn't be worried that there is no revolutionary movement. Revolutionary movements there will be. But the key question is to build a revolutionary leadership in time so that we can intervene in this. And there's an urgency to this."

I recommend comrades to actually re-read the whole document is very good, but these last two sections are very poignant for the situation now, and this is the main task that we have in front of ourselves.

Hamid
We'll put that in the reading list. It's a highly recommended document to read. And just a final thing. I mean, when I was thinking about the last month or two, I was thinking, 'Where the hell is the left?'

I mean, it's mind boggling. All of this is happening, and the left is navel-gazing, judging, sitting on the sidelines. And in our case, in Britain, they're fighting over who controls the structures of the coming, Your Party organisation, this and that. And they have failed every single...

Jorge
In fact, I was thinking Jeremy Corbyn and Zara Sultana they have a mailing list of 800,000 people, and they haven't issued a call for protest today over this question of the flotilla. That's a basic thing.

Hamid
Nothing. That's one of the things. These movements have an anti-party kind of sentiment to them.

Jorge
No wonder.

Hamid
Including the left. No wonder! Because the left, if it's done anything, it's participated along with the rest of the bourgeois parties.

Jorge
In most cases, they are seen as part of the problem.

Hamid
So there's only there's only one way. There's no middle way. The problem is they're trying to find a middle way. They're trying to find a way to maintain the system – this is the best of them. This is the most honest of them – and to give some concessions to the working class. But you cannot unite the interests of the capitalists and the working class. That is impossible. There's only one way.

And every attempt at maintaining the system means you end up managing the system. You end up, in one way or another, de facto supporting the system. And the only way forward is a clear revolutionary communist line to take down the whole thing and build a system based on the power of the working people, the youth and the poor, the peasants and the broader layers of the masses.

That's what we're about. So join the Revolutionary Communist International and help build that force.

I think that's all I had today.

Jorge
That's very good conclusion.

Hamid
Well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you everyone out there for tuning in. We'll be back next Thursday, 6pm UK time. This was Against the Stream.

Flotilla triggers mass protests, Trump's peace plan, Gen Z revolutions continue

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